SPEAKER_02 0:00

You can you can live down there, you can wake up, grab coffee, grab breakfast, walk to the office, walk to your coffee meeting, walk to your networking event, go catch up with friends after work, grab a cocktail, grab a drink, go grab a cigar, and then still walk right back home again.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

If you wanna hear about St. Louis, tune into the Bucketless Show Weekly. Hear what Marissa and Luke stay. It drops every Wednesday. Got a dope new guest every single week. Buckle up for the ride. Who's it gonna be? Who's on the show today? They rap St. Louis. What to do in the loo on a late night? A baby, what to do on a date night. Yeah. Bucket list as you cover, they know what's going on. What's going on? They'll give you eight. 18 different things to do on 19. If you need one more to choose, yeah. This city, city, city is the place we call home. A place we call home. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

St. Louis, welcome back to the STL bucket list show, the show that highlights the people, places, and events that make St. Louis special. We're here with episode 211. We've been putting out episodes each and every week with local business owners, entrepreneurs, artists, musicians, and really the movers and shakers of St. Louis. We got one of those in here today. Um I've known Alex for a long time, dating back to when you were at Spark Coworking. Um, you're you and your wife were really starting out there, and you've built this incredible business over the years investing in St. Louis, um, and specifically Washington Avenue. So, you know, I'm excited to talk about the Washab neighborhood. Everybody, you know, that listens to the show knows the Washab neighborhood, but you know it a little bit differently than everyone. You've been investing your time, yeah, energy, and all of that. So take us back to the beginning, Alex, and and you know, tell us what drew you to the neighborhood in the first part and why the biggest part of your mission is revitalizing that neighborhood.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah. So uh, so as you mentioned, we've been investing in St. Louis for like 18 years. So background's an engineer, we got into real estate, um, multifamily, mixed use, you know, commercial properties, and learned a lot over the years throughout St. Louis City, um, that you know, when you can really create a vibrant neighborhood, create a place that people want to live, right, add in the amenities that makes it so it's really a vibrant, you know, dynamic area. Uh, as we were looking to grow our company, you know, in 2022, 2021 era, you know, we're really trying to evaluate where do we think that our skill sets, our experience really match where there was an opportunity for us to grow and make an impact. We really saw an incredible opportunity along Washington Avenue. So Washav is full of these historic warehouse buildings from turn of the century, where you know, St. Louis had a thriving garment district, I think second to only New York in all of America. And so it was this huge, thriving area. And then in the late 90s, early 2000s, went through a renovation uh period where it became a lot of lofts, uh ground floor retail, a lot of activation. But it kind of went through a rough patch uh the last few years. So we saw an opportunity where there was a lot of out-of-town ownership, um, disjointed ownership, and no real cohesive plan, even though the built environment was great. You know, the walkability, the density of retail spacing, the density of housing, the density of office, the proximity to tourism and visitor, you know, uh draws really made this incredible opportunity if we could put all the pieces of the puzzle together. Um so we started focusing down there in the fall of 2023. So it's been about two and a half years that we've been really focusing aggressively on you know putting the piece of the puzzle back together, uh, where it started kind of breaking apart a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

A lot's happened in those two and a half years. It's been a bit more it feels like longer than that. Um, I mean, you guys have one of the things I really love about your guys' firm is is how bullish you are on this neighborhood because I I was just talking to somebody on the podcast last week. It's like, if not us, then who? If not now, then when? And it's like really it's like you're pioneering the build of this neighborhood, but you're working with all these other you know, small business owners to make that happen. Yeah. You know, a good neighborhood has good restaurants, it has great walkability, it has good jobs nearby, it has sports, music, and you guys have all of that in Wash Ave. You've mentioned it to me, and and I've started to look into it a lot more as we've been, you know, down there more is Washab is the most walkable neighborhood in St. Louis. Yeah. You've described it a little bit, but what does that actually mean for someone living there day-to-day?

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Yeah, I think what really stands out is there's only a handful of neighborhoods, I think, in the city that come close to even having this level of housing mixed with restaurants, bars, shops, amenities in the neighborhood, activities in the neighborhood, as well as jobs and business and employment and opportunities to start your own company. Um, you know, startups and tech firms, as well as, you know, brick and mortar, you know, retailers. So, you know, people who live down there, you know, you can you can live down there, you can wake up, grab coffee, grab breakfast, walk to the office, walk to your coffee meeting, walk to your networking event, grab lunch, go to the salon, get your hair done, um, go catch up with friends after work, grab a cocktail, grab a drink, go grab a cigar, um, and then still walk right back home again. Like it is that you can really do everything in your day-to-day life without a car. Yeah, which, you know, St. Louis is a pretty car-driven city. Like it's pretty rare to find that level of walkability all within one concentrated area of really just a handful of city blocks.

SPEAKER_01 5:03

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SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah, so it's been really interesting. It's part of what makes Welsh Averly so interesting is, you know, while we are geographically narrowed our focus, you know, the style of projects we are doing is incredibly diverse. So we have an office building, we have retail spaces, we have parking lots, we have, you know, we're gonna be opening a food hall. Uh, we're getting involved in retail activation as well as residential activation. So you know, just like the neighborhood, yeah. We're involved in residential, we're involved in retail, we're involved in office, we're involved in parking, we're involved in placemaking and amenity making. Yeah. Um, so it all kind of ties together that we're doing all of these things. We're just doing them in a very geographically dense location.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

And in getting those creative juices out because it's not just, you know, multifamilies, it's not just commercial. Like you're able to be a part of projects. The wash have food hall is one that, you know, we've got to see the back, you know, the behind the scenes of. And right now, obviously, you walk into the space, you can't tell, but if you've seen the renderings of like, you know, bringing a food hall to that neighborhood is going to, you know, just increase so many different things as far as a lot of those goals that you have is short-term activation, entertainment, built around a real neighborhood. So you mentioned, you know, the idea of two downtowns emerging in St. Louis. You know, what does that mean to you? And how do how do those things come to fruition?

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Well, I think that's one thing we're really seeing what is working well in our stretch where we're having good success and good momentum, is you know, that long-term stability that comes from entrepreneurs that are opening businesses in the retail spaces, residents that are putting down routes, whether they're buying condos or renting apartments, that provides kind of that 24-7 activation versus some of the you know entertainment driven. It's great. It gets us sales tax dollars, it gets a big crowd of people in, but then they all leave. Yeah. And so what happens on the days they're not there? How does the retailer survive? How does the business survive? How do people, you know, become really a comfortable, uh, you know, full-time neighborhood? It really takes those residents. It really takes that residential piece, the businesses, the office users, and the retail all playing together, not just, you know, an entertainment draw. Entertainment draw, again, it it's nice and it gives us a spike, uh, but it doesn't really sustain momentum and sustain growth and sustain stability in a neighborhood. And I think that's what we're seeing downtown is you know, along Wash Ave, you've got this residential density plus the office density. And so that kind of stabilizes things. Versus if you just have office, you know, in some pockets, it's not nearly as active. Yeah. Or you just have entertainment, on the days of entertainment, it's packed, but on the days there's no entertainment, it's pretty quiet.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yeah. I mean, every great neighborhood, when you think about it, you know, residents in the neighborhood create that activity because, you know, Tuesday afternoons when nothing's going on, it's like when you see people walking around that area. So what types of residents? I mean, you're also, you know, a multifamily guy down there as well, but like what are what types of residents are you seeing move into the neighborhood today?

SPEAKER_02 8:20

What has been really interesting is by far I would say the most diverse um neighborhood from a demographic standpoint, from a background standpoint, from an age standpoint. Um, you know, we get a lot of transplants. So people that are new to our region, uh, I think by default, kind of look in the city core. You know, it's uh it's a vibrant area, it's a walkable area. A lot of people who are transplants tend to be younger. Yeah. So haven't established families yet. They're not looking to buy a house yet. So they're looking for that really active community. Right. Um, so we get a lot of people that are, you know, employed on the Metro East side. Or again, if they're not looking to buy a house, they're looking for something that's super walkable. Central West End and Clayton is pretty far away if you're working over in the Metro East. Um, but then we also get people that work at, you know, the tech hub that is also around Washab. So they're working for the NGA or they're working for the contractors who work for the NGA. You know, there's a there's a tech scene, an AI scene, scale AI is down there, yeah, glow building, post-building, T-Rex prep building. You know, a lot of these are really based in the tech industry, financial tech, geospatial tech world that I don't understand, but I know my residents work there and get good jobs and get good salaries. So it's a very diverse environment. We have people that do startups, we've got a couple of arch grant winners that actually live in our building. So it's uh incredibly diverse, and that's kind of what makes it such a vibrant neighborhood is it's mixing all these different people from different backgrounds that their commonality is they want a walkable, dense urban environment.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Exactly. And you have other groups downtown like New and Found, AHM, and and a lot of local groups that are also investing in downtown. How important is that for Oliver Properties and and all of your other, you know, colleagues in different industries to to also be investing in that?

SPEAKER_02 9:53

Yeah, I think it's I think it's great. I think um having that local background and that local knowledge, we also look beyond our four walls of our investments. Right. You know, I think a lot of times an out-of-town group, you know, nothing against an out-of-n group, but a lot of times, you know, you're just looking at the property itself, not what makes the neighborhood, not what happens around the neighborhood, not what happens to, you know, to make it active and you know, connecting everything together. You know, we see this down on the landing, they're doing retail, they're doing, you know, some office, they're doing some residential, you know, AHM uh has obviously got quite a few different projects going on in downtown west. You know, all these groups are looking at, you know, this sort of connective tissue and trying to not just make their projects work well, but make the neighborhood grow along the way.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Um and not just looked at the building on its own.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

And that's and that's how I think of like when I think of business and I think of projects like that is that's how like real progress is made and real legacy is built through those connected projects. Because you know, if somebody else in a different neighborhood is also building in those connect, it's when you go to these other cities and and St. Louis has gone through so many evolutions through that. And one of the things that that I love most about Washab is is the small business community of what's what's been built there. Obviously, everybody knows the cool lofts and all the cool things that are down there, but this business community, just from walking through the street and and seeing the entrepreneurs starting with, you know, a little shop and turning that into a restaurant and a market. I know we're gonna be talking to a few of them, but what what makes it appealing, you know, besides being in the heart of downtown and the walkability, like what makes it appealing for small businesses to start downtown?

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah. You know, I think what is, you know, St. Louis is sort of a gritty city. Uh and I say that with in a good good way. Uh it is a very entrepreneurial town. You know, there's a an opportunity that exists that you're not boxed out because it's all full of national retail chains, they're paying top rent, and there's no affordability for someone who's starting up. So there's, you know, reasonable price points for someone who's starting up and looking to reach a retail space. If they're looking to open up a tech firm and looking for some office space, that's available as well. And a lot of these spaces, because they're in these historic buildings, you know, you could never replicate this. Your ability to have a small startup company, you know, with these cool vaulted ceilings and loft spaces and big storefront glass and big open floor plans, you know, in a in a different neighborhood or in a different environment or a different country, or not country city, um, in the country, you know, you'd be paying 3x, 4x, 5x the cost to get these amazing spaces. Yeah, and in a modern office, it's never going to feel the same as it does in these, you know, historic fabrics. So, you know, it does take a mix of some of the new and the old mixed together, but I think that's what draws the entrepreneur down there is there are opportunities. There are openings, there's availability to say, oh, I can fill a need, I can fill a gap, I can slide in here and make this work.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

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SPEAKER_02 13:23

You know, there's a there's a lot of challenges. Um there's a multitude of challenges, let's be honest. You know, that's why we started down there as a uh value add group, is we saw an opportunity where there was a challenge. Some of it is the spaces themselves. You know, these are historic loft buildings that were not designed for residential, that were not really designed for the retail like it's being used today. Right. These were giant warehouses. I mean, they were making shirts and hats and gloves. And so a lot of them are like 120-foot deep buildings. They run street to street, they're a full city block. Well, to put a normal retailer in there, it's like walking into a bowling alley. You know, it's 120 feet deep and 30 feet wide. So configuring spaces that are usable. Um, what we've tried to get creative with in our mixed-use buildings, we've been able to do this pretty well. We've got apartments up above, residents up above. We take some of these odd retail spaces offline and actually make them a resident community space. So there's social space for the residents, there's, you know, a game lounge, there's a fitness center, uh, more social space for the residents to gather. That's another theme we're seeing with our residents who do choose Wash Av, is that they want connectivity. You know, they want to know their neighbor, they want to build a community. And so we help them build that community in the building. And it's a win-win because we're taking off some of this, you know, weird retail space that is hard to fit a business in anyway, um, and making it functional for the residents. So that's been one way we've tried to get creative. Um, the other thing is, you know, kind of connecting between buildings. You know, we're looking at that with our food hall. So it's gonna be kind of like an L-shaped space when it's all said and done. Yeah. Um, so we'll have like the regular food hall area, some rear area, and then sort of a social game area. Um, and so it's just always being creative and like, all right, how do you make, you know, you're working within these existing brick walls, you can't move them. Right. So how do you make something fit now knowing those constraints?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yeah. And, you know, as we kick off this video series highlighting these individual operators and and these individual owners, you know, what are you hoping that people can see during that is these types of business owners that get to get to build their lives here?

SPEAKER_02 15:10

Yeah, I think that's what's really exciting to pivot from, you know, in the past, I've talked a lot about, you know, our projects and and where we're focusing and just raising even just the general awareness of you know projects that are going on down here. Now being able to expand that story with other partners and other businesses that are involved downtown, showing that in the Wash Ave neighborhood, you know, there are all these local businesses, local owners, um, whether they be, you know, have a small shop, have a retail space, have a restaurant, have a bar, uh, tech startups in in some of the tech offices and those businesses that are down there. There's all this vibrancy and a lot of kind of an entrepreneurial energy that is all connected together, again, not just on the street, but in the surrounding buildings as well. Um, and so that's what I'm really hoping to highlight is there there's others involved. There is current activity, there is all of these things already happening. Obviously, tons of room for us to grow, and that's why we're telling the story is yeah, we're not only here now, but we're growing. The neighborhood is growing, the neighborhood's becoming more and more dynamic, more and more vibrant. It's already got the good bones today of that walkability, but where can we add more neighborhood retail? Where can we add more shopping experiences? Where can we add more, you know, that vintage clothing store? Uh that it's like, oh yeah, there's all this connected tissue. You know, we've got a lot of the food and beverage today, we've got a lot of those restaurants today. It's filling in some of those other pieces that we're hoping people can see. Wow, there really is, you know, all this existing neighborhood amenities. Let's add in a few more, let's move down there, let's check this place out.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

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SPEAKER_02 17:42

Well, I think one thing that's interesting is you know, when these buildings go through these gut renovations from the outside, they look exactly the same. Of course. You know, a lot of these buildings, you know, from 1880 or 1930, from the outside, it looks like the same building. That's sort of the cool part. Uh, but also it's hard to tell what else has been changed inside. You know, so I think over the years we've seen this whole neighborhood go through a real transition of, you know, textile manufacturing. It was an industrial area. Um, to then it really declined and you know, a lot of that industrial left, and so it kind of became empty. And I think it revived a little bit as more of like an entertainment district. Oh, go down there for the bars, but there's really nothing else to do. You just go down there at night. Right. Um, and now over the last, you know, decade here, it's really transitioned to a residential neighborhood. You know, almost all of those spaces up above the ground floor are residents. Apartments, condos, you know, it's people that are living down here. There's some office spaces on, you know, not on the main washav stretch, but just on the periphery of the neighborhood. So there's this diverse use. You know, we're we're seeing what really happens when a neighborhood, an urban neighborhood, you know, these are 10, 12 story buildings, uh goes through a transition, goes from industrial and office to office and residential, and office and residential and retail. And that retail activation is different when you've got a bunch of residents and office users. I think it's really interesting to see this transition. It's very unique in downtown along Wash Ave. You know, a lot of the neighborhoods on the north side or on the south side have been residential since they were first developed. Right. You know, they were built in the 20s as duplexes and foreplexes, and they're still duplexes and foreplexes. This is really seeing an entire neighborhood transition from, you know, 30 years ago, next to zero residence and all industrial to now almost all residential and you know, hardly any industrial. So it's a really cool evolution to see it really become a neighborhood.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

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SPEAKER_01 19:59

And I think it's important for people to understand that because, like you mentioned, like if you lived in South City, like I used to live on Kings Highway in Southampton, and it's like it's just a neighborhood with history of grandmother owned the house, and then they passed it down to the kid, and everybody knows that as a neighborhood. But when you go to Washington Avenue, it's like you associate that with, you know, a party that you went to maybe or the game after the game you went to. But it's like when you look at the market of that neighborhood, because you guys, like you mentioned, you're an analytical guy. It's like, you know, what is that? What is the residential numbers there that could actually be down there? And what can what can that neighborhood support?

SPEAKER_02 20:31

What is interesting about Washav is if it was, if it was folded back on itself instead of being, you know, a mile and a half long, it would be about the densest neighborhood in the city. Um, it just has that amount of density. It's just stretch skinny. Yeah. Um, you know, so you go three blocks north and it's much lower density. You go a couple blocks south, it's mostly kind of office. Um, that does create this diversity of you've got, you know, office just a couple blocks away, then the walkable retail right along the street, and a lot of the residential right along the street. Um, but there is an incredible level of density there. You know, there is some development opportunities, and there's still projects that are fairly new. You know, Jefferson Arms is gonna come online fairly soon. Black Line's got a mid-sized building office conversion to residential that's coming online fairly soon, down closer to the east end, um, near the arch grounds, mansion house is gonna be getting completely redone. So you're still seeing this residential growth. Right. Um, you know, so I think we could easily see, you know, several thousand more residents continuing to move into the neighborhood over the next, you know, 36 months, you know, maybe five years, that you'll continue to see this density grow. Um, and that continues to create, you know, it's sort of a I guess a virtuous cycle up as there's more retail, it's a more attractive place for people to live. Yeah, as more people live there, there's more demand for retail. Now there's more opportunities for more retailers to grow. And it becomes this, oh, now the neighborhood has the amenities, so I want to live there. Well, why do I want to live there? Right. Because it has the amenities. And I think we've really seen companies want to move there. Yeah, yeah. I think we've seen this tipping point, you know, over the last you know, five to ten years of a density of residential critical mass has gotten there. Yep. And now it's making sure that we've got the right retail activation that matches that. Exactly. You know, it's not Just a retail activation that serves the out-of-towner or serves the tourist or serves the, you know, the late night party scene.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

It's does this retail serve a neighborhood where people want to live?

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Mm-hmm. And when you guys are doing like, you know, your market research, is there a neighborhood in the country that really compares to this? Or is this really I mean, you mentioned the word unique a lot. Yeah. But I'm trying to like think of other cities I've traveled a lot, but like there's not a lot that compares to it. But I'm sure there's other markets you look at of like they've done something like this.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yeah, I think what what is unique that I have seen in St. Louis. So, you know, we've we've talked a lot to Cincinnati. So Cincinnati has gone through an urban downtown revitalization. That entire focus has been 20 city blocks. You know, again, we talk about our downtown being two square miles. You know, Wash Ave, you consider it's kind of three blocks north and south from Fourth Street to Jefferson. Like even just Wash Av as a neighborhood is probably, you know, 40 city blocks. So it's two X the size. So that size, but also because it's such a long, skinny neighborhood, yeah, really does make it stand out, I think, as a pretty unique place. Um, and its fact that it's you know so close to high levels of office density, yet also so close to you know major league uh event spaces. You know, you've got Bush Stadium, you've got Enterprise Center, you got the soccer stadium, you got Union Station, you've got the convention center, you got the arch grounds. All of that is literally blocks from this neighborhood. Right. So I think that combination really is unique for St. Louis, but also unique for you know Wash Ave. Because when you compare it to like other neighborhoods in the city, like South Grant, great walkable neighborhood, right? Not very dense, mostly just two-story buildings. You got more density, you know, along Euclid of a super dense area, but you don't have, you know, the giant tourism draws that downtown has of you know these major sports venues and things like that. So the combination of all of them in one, you know, compact neighborhood is really, I think why I keep saying unique, is really, really unique.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

This episode is sponsored by Upshot Coffee, three St. Louis area locations in Cottleville Break Shop in St. Charles and their new hi-fi location in Clayton. I personally use Upshot Coffee every day at my espresso machine at home, and I try to visit one of the shops at least once a week. They source the beans responsibly from local farms all across the world, um, and they take care of their staff and they take care of the community. Let's get back to the show. And it's and it's important for the rest of the city because I think that a lot of people know this, but some some St. Louis residents that might not understand is like the importance of that downtown hub or every other aspect of St. Louis. When people come here, they they there's some great spots over in South City and all that, but it's not where people are staying when they're in downtown. So it's like it's important to have these, you know, these amenities where people are at. Um, because St. Louis has all these unique things, but it's so spread out. Like I lived in St. Lou I live in St. Louis City, but it was South City. I was 15 minutes from Washat, but I was still in St. Louis City. Yeah. But it was like I was in a completely different neighborhood than being in downtown. But I think that people understanding is like if when downtown is successful, the entire metro area is accessible from Illinois all the way out to St. Charles, all the way up to North County down to South County.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Well, we've seen it firsthand, and I think I've heard it anecdotally from you know demographers and other people that are doing a lot of an analysis, is that downtown is that first experience for the majority of transplants to our city. You know, a lot of transplants, again, they're moving when they're younger, not having families, not having kids yet, because they're more mobile and on their feet. So their first experience is, yeah, moving to a city, they sort of expect to move to an urban core. Um, and so if we're not meeting that first impression very well, you know, that that reflects on the whole region. That reflects on our all of our neighborhoods. So, like, boy, I don't want to live in St. Louis, it's not a great place to live. Right. Versus, no, I want to live in St. Louis. It's a great neighborhood. It's great, full of great neighborhoods. And it's got, you know, this community and this entrepreneurial vibe that people connect together. I think that's the other thing that's I I I like about uh Washab as a neighborhood is it is a connected neighborhood. You know, there are these small businesses, there are startups, there are the residents who have now lived there 20, 20-ish years, uh, but you're still all this like new move in, you know, kind of this young vibrancy, young energy that you sometimes don't have in some of the older neighborhoods where, well, that's been this way for you know 30 years, 50 years, 70 years, 80 years. This is a very dynamic neighborhood. You know, it is undergoing change. There are new projects getting done, there are new businesses opening, there is new, you know, tech firms happening. You know, it's that dynamic and that energy is also really fun to see.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

And part of the reason why we're doing this 12-part series is really just highlighting those businesses that have both been there in the neighborhood, but also the ones making up those. So, you know, as you start your day at Rooster or go to lunch at Sin, who's been in the neighborhood for over 20 years, or grab a cigar at Stanley's, or drink amazing cocktails at Monica, or some of the best cocktails that you can get in the city. And and some of these entrepreneurs, you know, on the street that have opened multiple businesses because it gives you that potential to start and what better place to start in the heart of downtown and have a walking billboard for these small business owners. So I'm proud of what you guys have done and and proud from the outside, but now, you know, getting a chance to know you guys and and really committing to this neighborhood, not just as Oliver properties, but really as Wash Av neighborhood, not the street, the neighborhood itself, and making that an you know an identity in itself.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Yeah, and and pulling in us and other partners and other businesses and everyone, you know, it this is a neighborhood effort. You know, there's a lot of organizations involved in downtown, but you know, each kind of has their own focused area. This is really, you know, defining a neighborhood. Like let's really talk about why this neighborhood is so great and all the things that are already here. You know, there's tons of room for it to grow, tons of room for it to improve, but it's already here. It's already a great neighborhood. Let's talk about it and let people see it and then hopefully come down and explore it and experience it them themselves.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Alex, I appreciate you for coming on today and and uh St. Louis, thank you guys for tuning in and we'll see you guys next week.