Intro & Meet Debbie Baldwin

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I would say I deleted as much as I wrote in terms of getting this book where I wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_04 0:06

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SPEAKER_00 0:46

If you wanna hear about St. Louis, tune in to the Bucket List Show Weekly. Hear what Marissa and Luke say. It drops every Wednesday, got a dope new guest every single week. Buckle up for the ride. Who's it gonna be? Who's on the show today? They rap Saint Louis. What to do in the loo on a late night? I maybe what to do on a date night. Yeah. Bucket list has you covered, they know what's going on. What's going on? They'll give you eighteen different things to do on nineteen if you need one more to choose. Yeah. The city, city, city is a place we call home. A place we call home. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

St. Louis, welcome back to the STL bucket list show in studio today in Maplewood. Um, our producers Bailey and Julia producing an episode each and every week that comes out highlighting the people, places, and events that make St. Louis special. Have one of those people in today, you know, just got my hands on a book from you. We have Debbie Baldwin, author, um, writer, um, all these different titles that you've had throughout your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

But

Growing Up in St. Louis & Clayton Roots

SPEAKER_01 1:48

I've been fired from so many jobs.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Tell me about, I want to learn a little bit more about you because you know, people might know you from the book, but you are from St. Louis. So tell me a little bit about growing up in St. Louis and and what the city means to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah, um, you know, St. Louis is my home. I was born and raised here. I grew up in Clayton. Um, you're gonna ask me the question everyone asks.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

Yeah, where'd you go to high school at?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Uh, I went to John Burroughs.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Every time I go away, and you know, I've lived on the East Coast for 10 years and sort of lived all over, but I always seem to come back to St. Louis. And I've lived here with my husband and we raised our kids here. So it's definitely home for me and always has been.

SPEAKER_04 2:31

So you, you know, grew up in St. Louis and then you went to Princeton in law school, and then you went to writing spy thrillers. Like how does that, how does that happen? Because you had, you know, in theory, you were on the right path of going to this law school, going to Princeton, and then now you started writing. Were you always into writing, even as a young person as

From Princeton & Law School to Writing

SPEAKER_04 2:48

well?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Um, you know, I've always had jobs that revolved around writing that required very strong writing skills. I've been a marketing um uh executive, a or, you know, underling, um, a speech writer, a television writer. I was a columnist for Ledu News for many years under the moniker the tangential thinker, which was a very popular humor column in Leduce News. Um, when I graduated from law school and, you know, told my parents I thought I wanted to maybe do something involving writing, um, my dad kindly commented that I now owed him $143,000. Um, but yeah, so I've always kind of leaned into writing. Yeah. Uh, but these I started, I wrote my first novel during COVID, which is False Front, which is a straight up romantic suspense novel, lots of steamy sex, lots of action and danger, um, just for fun. Yeah. It was a book to read during COVID when you're locked up and you're looking for an escape.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

And that

Eight Novels in Six Years, Plotters vs. Pantsers

SPEAKER_01 3:58

turned into a seven book series. So, um, and then this now is my eighth novel. So, and I've done all my writing in St. Louis and just it's a very inspiring place to live.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

So, COVID, so within the last six years, you've you've written eight novels, and I'm sure you have more things and crazy ideas that you're writing right now as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Um, just a very active imagination, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

So, walk me through that that creative energy because we all are creatives here as well in different fields. But like, what does your writing setup look like? Like how focused you have to be, like how many hours goes in. I mean, so much time goes into some of these. And then sometimes you just free flow and you can write a lot all at one time. But yeah. Tell me about that creative blog energy.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Definitely, you know, in the writing world, they call there's two kinds of writers. They call them a plotter or a pantser. Uh, a pantser is someone who flies by the seat of their pants. And really, that's um, the Bishop Security series, which is the seven book romantic suspense series, is full on just uh writing, writing, writing, what, you know, how I wanted the story to unfold, what's romantic, what's scary, what's this or that. And they were so fun to write. Now, this book, The Architect of Deception, which is a thriller, it's a straight-up murder mystery, locked room, high society, Manhattan uh elite, billionaire murder type of a thing. That in the tradition of like an Agatha Christie or P.D. James requires tremendous plotting.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Yeah.

Crafting The Architect of Deception

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Every single thread has to be followed to its logical conclusion so that you know, clues make sense. The reader goes, I oh, I should have figured it out. You know, the big twist.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

So this one required, I would say I deleted as much as I wrote in terms of getting this book where I wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

That's crazy. So as far as deleting, so you would write, write, write, write, write, write, plot, plot, write, and then you'd be like, oh, that's that sucks. Let me delete it. Yeah, yeah. Or I'll be 100%.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

You know, holy crud. Like, uh, you know, that guy can't be there. Yes. He's a suspect. He needs to have no alibi. So then I delete that whole chapter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

And the only way to do that is like you write it and then you reread it or you send it to, you know, somebody that is a mentor or somebody that reads your stuff, and they're like, wait, that like, because if it doesn't make sense to you, it's definitely not going to make sense to the average reader. So it's like, how can I make this, you know, accessible.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Accessible. And also to a point where you want to have enough information in a who-done it that a reader could in theory solve the crime. But you want to present it in such a way that when they, you know, the who-done it is resolved, they go, I did not see that coming, and I could have. That's like the that's the dream. Is that and the other thing is I don't know if I have like a heightened sense of justice or if, you know, we live in a world where, you know, people's power and money seem to get people out of crimes, or maybe it's always been that way. I'm, you know. But I one thing I do love about this book is that the rich and powerful bad guys get it in the end and the you know, good and honest people triumph.

The Origin Story: High Society & Manhattan Elite

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Yeah. So where did this original idea come from? Because you mentioned high society, you mentioned New York City, Manhattan. Like, how did that scene get set? Like, how does that begin? Because you need that scene before you start writing the book too.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

You know, it's the stupidest reason in the world, and that um my husband, when he was at he went to Princeton too. And when he was at Princeton, he had a group of friends. I honestly, this guy, I think if he ever like hears the story, is gonna be like, What? What? Um, they were sitting around the dorm, their dorm room, I'm sure indulging in some sort of lighthearted recreational substance. And um, and uh they asked the question, what are you guys gonna do when you graduate? And one of the guys in the circle was extremely privileged, came from a very like elite blue-blood Manhattan family. And his response was, and I actually wrote it in this book too, his response was, I'm gonna get a house and start really hanging out. And it just hilarious for one, is it's a typical college senior, like oh all the pressure of you know, yeah, taking history 202 is too much for this guy. Right. And it's also pathetic because when you have that much privilege, you have an obligation to society to do something to make the world better, in my opinion. Um so this character, the lead character in the architect of Deception, is a guy named Raz James. And he is not just hanging out, but he has been sort of sidelined by the death of his identical twin. And that is where the story kind of emerged from was a guy with everything in the world who cannot get himself out of this hole. And then suddenly this invitation to a secret society arrives and it's stupid and it's risky and it's dangerous, and he really thinks I have nothing to lose. Why? And I'm desperate for something to distract me from this darkness. So you start off with this guy that you kind of sympathize with, but also are kind of like, you gotta be kidding me. You've got all this stuff, and all you do is, you know, play Minecraft and drink all day. So yeah. So that's where the kind of origin story and then it just grew from there into this much more complicated thing.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

So

How the Idea Grew Into a Full Thriller

SPEAKER_04 9:48

it starts with that idea and it's like, okay, well, now let's spin it off. And obviously, it's not like a, you know, but that pulled inspiration from that of like, what does this high society look like? You know, you're from St. Louis, it's a whole different world than some of these cities like Manhattan.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

So and St. Louis has certainly that echelon too. I mean, it's like every city has it, and every city has their elite, their little their local royalty for sure. Absolutely. And so they're all and in St. Louis, it's some incredibly wealthy people.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

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Research: High Society, NYC & The Gilded Age

SPEAKER_01 10:58

You know, it's um it's personal experience from, you know, people I know from college, people I know from living in New York, working in New York. I worked as a waitress in New York City for three years, and I, you know, waiting on celebrities and chatting and stuff like that, um, from research, from, you know, even watching the Gilded Age, for example, which is not the same time period, but that aura of behavior and what's acceptable and who's acceptable is still very prevalent, I think, in that sort of 0.01% of the of of the population.

Hard Scenes to Write & AI's Role in Storytelling

SPEAKER_04 11:41

Yeah. Was there a specific scene or part of this book that was either extremely fun to write or extremely hard to write? Like either or? Like was there one, you know, chapter or scene or story that was was uh either really fun or really hard to write?

SPEAKER_01 11:55

You know, it's interesting you ask because there's always a component, I wouldn't describe it as writer's block. I've been very lucky knocking on wood that I don't really get writer's block. I always have something I can write, especially in my stories, which tend to be sev several disparate events that weave together. Yes. So um that um the fun parts to write are often what I'll resort to if I if I'm stuck. Like I'll say, Oh, I don't know where I'm going with this, but I'll then I'll say, Oh, I know this guy's getting his head blown off. So that is what I'm gonna write. And or, you know, I know that, you know, the the the boat explodes or whatever, and that's always a fun scene to write. The scenes that are hard for me to write, and I've heard other writers talk about this, thriller writers, really good ones, you know, John Mars and people like that, Taylor Adams, who write just books that you kind of gotta hide under the bed while you're reading them. That because I know what's gonna happen, or I know who's following the person, or I know, you know, how it resolves, it's hard to write those scenes and feel that same sense of panic.

unknown 13:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

But you're the one, you know that I know it's happening, so I'm not scared.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

So when people c tell me or message me or or text me or say, oh my God, that scene, I'm always like, really?

SPEAKER_04 13:22

You don't feel the same way about your own work as other people might feel about it. Because yeah, no, that's that's probably how a lot of people feel.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:28

That's

How False Front Was Born During COVID

SPEAKER_04 13:29

how a lot of people probably feel. And it's um, you know, you mentioned like the under, you're not creating like in word with the written word. And now more than ever, I had Sarah Finski on recently, who's a columnist or used to be a columnist. She's a writer for the St. Louis magazine, and we had a conversation about AI. And it's like, okay, well, AI can tell good stories, but not really. It's like, how can the human connection get weaved into it? So what do you think the future of writing looks like, especially in a world of AI right now?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

You know, it's funny because um I just texted my kids AI is gonna turn me into a serial killer. Because you can't really yell at AI, even though it's not giving you the answer you want.

SPEAKER_03 14:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Um, I did hear this great interview with an author, and I actually didn't see who the author was, but the comment was when the interviewer asked him about AI, he said, that's like asking me if I would use AI to have sex. Why would I want to use AI for something that I love doing myself? And that's the plain honest truth is the process of writing a chapter, of writing a book, of putting the words on the page is why I have this job. So I tend to reject AI for anything other than um, you know, help me reply to an email without being rude.

SPEAKER_04 14:55

Like the the admin task. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But what you said is like you got into this in your second phase of life, is like, I got into this for a reason. I want to write these stories because you were probably an avid reader yourself before that. I mean, you were you worked, you mentioned columnists, you mentioned uh was there TV background writing and all that.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I read

Releasing Her First Novel & Learning to Self-Promote

SPEAKER_01 15:12

a TV show um that aired in nine in uh 2016 called Almost There on AT ⁇ T's Audience Network. It was a 10-episode single camera comedy. Yeah. Start Steven Pasquale, um, Susan Caliche Watson from This Is Us. It was it was really fun to do and great being on set and all that stuff. But that's a story for another time.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Yeah, no, that's so cool. So when we um I kind of want to go back to your first, your first novel, False Front. So what was the what what did you think was gonna happen when you released that? Was that you said it was a passion project? Did you think that it was gonna turn into a seven book series? Did you think that you would have all this, you know, notoriety from it? Like tell me, walk me through like releasing that first that first book.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

Um it was COVID. It was also um my youngest child had just um, I think he was a senior in high school. So he was getting ready to go off to college. And I was plowing through Kindle Unlimited, Amazon, just eating books. I was reading for three and four hours. I just was had a lot of time. And I kept thinking to myself, I want this book in my head. I wanted, I kept scrolling the book descriptions, you know, and Amazon recommends things for you. And Barnes and Noble says, You might people who bought this also bought this. And I'm reading all the book descriptions. I'm going, no, that's not what I want. That's not what I want. I want this guy who, and you most people have never heard of a book called The Scarlet Pimpernell, which was a classic English novel uh about a dandy, an a British aristocrat who was just um like did nothing and was didn't nobody had a particular high opinion of him. He went through parties and attended parties, but at night in secret, he was this this map like he was Batman, kind of. And that concept in not a superhero way was what I was kind of looking for, which is what False Front is. Nathan Bishop is this New York City um party boy, drunk, high society, heir apparent to a big company, and he's always in the tabloids, like at the Plaza Hotel Fountain with two supermodels on his arm and a bottle of champagne in his hand. And but when the king, you know, no one's looking, he runs this elite covert group of former Navy SEALs who run rescue missions and do security. And it's it's just awesome. It's like you think this is like when you're reading it, I hope people think anyway, that it's just the coolest. Like when I imagined it in my mind, like as I was writing it, it's just like was I always had a smile on my face when I was writing it. And I um I but what I wanted in that's what I was looking for in a book that I couldn't find, and I just kind of said, F it, I'm gonna write it myself.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Of course.

SPEAKER_01 18:18

And which is what how how False Front came about.

SPEAKER_04 18:21

That's so cool. So, what was the reaction to like your family when you're like, Oh, I'm just gonna write this book? Like, were they like, oh, that that of course, you know, you love books, or like what was that like?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Um, you know, it was weird. I didn't really talk about it that much, and I probably wrote the first 150 pages in about three weeks. Wow. Just I had it so clearly, the vision of it in my mind that it really like I just banged it out pretty quickly. And then I just said to my husband, I'm like writing this book. And I mean, I got an editor and got a cover designer, and you know, they make it so easy to write a book these days. What what they don't tell you is it's hard to sell a book these days.

SPEAKER_04 19:04

Yeah,

Publishing, Standing Out & the 10 Million Books Problem

SPEAKER_04 19:05

they'll publish it for you.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Absolutely, and it costs very little to do it, but you're in there with, you know, Susie or you know, the next door neighbor who, you know, wrote a story about the hedgehog that lives in her garden and you know, whatever, of the memoir of your other neighbor's divorce. And yeah, it's there's just a lot out there. I think they said there's 10 million books on Amazon right now. I mean, short of a manifesto, you can put anything, any published thing up on Amazon. Yes, there's no almost no screening process. Yeah, so getting yourself noticed is a different matter, and it is definitely not my skill set. Marketing it and terrible self-promoter.

SPEAKER_04 19:47

I'm, you know, well, you're here on the podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

I'm here, I'm learning. I'm eight, it's taking eight bucks to get here, Lucas. I'm like, read this damn thing. It's really good.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

The STL bucket list show is proudly sponsored by Suede Dispensary with 11 Missouri area locations. Suede does so much for the St. Louis community. We've been working with this team for a couple of years back since Medical was here, and we're excited to support their new product launches, events, and community initiatives. We couldn't be happier to work with this premier cannabis brand, and we're excited for them to sponsor the show. Enjoy the rest of the podcast. As you mentioned, the 10 million books. There's also 20 different streaming services. There's hundreds of movies that just come out, nobody knows it. Like, I don't even know what's coming out anymore because there's so much. And that bums me out too. Because there's no excitement about content anymore.

Content Overload & How People Discover Books Today

SPEAKER_01 20:34

And it's so hard. And I think it's hard for Netflix and Prime and all the premium net streaming platforms to say like this one people are loving. Yeah. It's it's very difficult to find. I mean, I rely on a couple of really good TikTokers who say these are five shows on Netflix you've never heard of that are fantastic, and try and like find stuff that way. And that's how you're getting a lot of your content. And there's bookstagrammers and book talkers on social media and Facebook who do it too in X and you know, everywhere. Um, but you have to, it it's certainly not as easy as it once was when you say, you know, when it was Game of Thrones is on. That's what I'm watching, that's what we're watching.

SPEAKER_04 21:13

Or it's like, I'm going to the movies, like I'm 30, and it's like I remember going to the movies with my parents like when you're 13. That was only 17 years ago, but it was like that was what we were seeing was whatever the top box office was. And now it's like, oh, let's flip to this one or let's flip to this one. And my wife's an English major, she's an English teacher, so she is the type of person will go on vacation. She'll read like six books in a week, like just nonstop.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

She can't read as much in the case.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

Yeah, yeah, she'll read them. And uh now, now that we have two little babies, it's harder to like even focus on a book. But she's like, Man, I miss actually because she teaches all these books in school, so she reads the same ones every year. Yeah. You know, so it's like, I want to read something actually for fun, you know, and then that's like the the challenge as young parents is like there's not much we can do, you know, that doesn't I saw this interview with Ann Patchett, who's a wonderful writer, uh, and just has a new book out called Whistler.

Word of Mouth — Still the Best Marketing Tool

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Which is it's topping all the bestseller lists already. Um, and the interviewer asked her what's the best way to market a book? And she said it's and she owns a bookstore. She owns this huge bookstore in Nashville called Parnassus Books, which said it's not social media, it's not advertising, it's not hiring some big, you know, publicist. It is a woman or a man reading a book and then calling or texting their best friend and saying, You have got to read this. And that word of mouth is absolutely priceless. And that is the sort of ephemeral uh thing of you know, the Da Vinci Code, 50 Shades of Gray. You can think of the books that that had that, where people are just like saying to their friends, stopping people in the street. My daughter had a woman tap her on a shoulder in an airplane and pass her a copy of Verity and say, I just finished this, you're gonna love it. And just gave it to her.

SPEAKER_03 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

And I always give, I give my kids and my friends copies of the book and say, when you're on the flight, give it to the someone who looks like a reader. Skin it to someone who's reading and say, Yeah, word of mouth.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

And I mean, the still a form of the word of mouth is what the TikTokers you mentioned. That's just a bigger form of word of mouth because they're reaching a million people all at one time. But like that's a trusted source. So if Debbie comes to me and tells me to read a book, she's vetted it. She's you've read hundreds and thousands of books. So it's like, you know. And like my wife's the same way, they pass books around and they trade them. We never get them back. That's always the bummer, is you never get it back. But that's fine, you know. Right. And for you, it's like, hey, like, you know, you can have it, but then also like, you know, buy it on Amazon too.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Right, exactly. But I always say, like, um, you know, like if you know, die uh I love dive into a good book on on books on um Instagram. Yeah. And I say, Oh, if if Jenny loved this book, I know we have the same taste. Like when you get into a groove, yeah, and I think it's the same with TV shows and anything. You say, like, I always seem to agree with this guy on Redbox. You know what I mean? Like that that's Oh, Redbox was awesome.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

I used to love the McDonald's, they would always have one.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Oh, you're talking about Redbox, the movie thing, or are you talking about something else?

SPEAKER_01 24:15

No, I'm talking about the reviews. Oh, okay. I'm tripping. Yeah. Is it Red Book or Red Box?

SPEAKER_04 24:19

I don't know. Redbox was the TV, the DVD. The DV vending machines. Those were they were a dollar. 99 cents. And then I remember getting Netflix delivered to my house too, because you used to get it in the in the postal thing, and you would get Netflix, and then you would pay so many late fines, just like you would at Family Video and Blockbuster. That was the fun part is like going to family video with your family on a Friday night or block.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

I guess it was Blockbuster too, but um You know, there's a Blockbuster, an intact blockbuster in like Southern California that they use for period films. Like if they're shooting a movie that was set in like the 80s and they rent it out and they have a black, like a real blockbuster video.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

Like just renting it out for the day for like these documents.

SPEAKER_01 25:01

I don't think people can actually use it to rent videos.

SPEAKER_04 25:04

But they can use it to like take selfies in there and stuff. Or it's like people go there and take a picture in front of it. Um, that's so funny. Um, so you mentioned I read something about you that every new book you release is your favorite. Is that still true? Or is that uh what it what tell me about that?

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Yes, I mean, I this book I love just because it's like so much went into making it, writing it, um, constructing it really. Um, the architect of deception. It is, you know, this this high society who done it. So the putting all the little building blocks together was a real labor of love for sure. Um, you know, the seven book series, uh, the Bishop Security series, those books are just like a blast to read. I mean, I I you know, for your listeners who are travel or who read before bed or who look for a rainy day read or a beach read. Yes. The Bishop Security series is it. It's thrilling, but it's not disturbing. It's exciting, it's spicy, as we say in the book community. Um so yeah, it's like great for a vacation, or it's great, like it's a great high, like heart rate, low stress read.

SPEAKER_04 26:25

And that's a hard, that's a very gent gentle balance that you can create. It's a tightrope for sure. Where like my wife will read a book and then just like close it or like close it during a chapter, and like I have to come back to this because it's so crazy or it's so intense. And it's like, you know, that's like such a in such an invaluable thing that you can create for people. And I think what's hard about people that create, like we're digital creators, your you know, written word, but it's like you can't always see how people are reacting when they're actually using your product. And that's such a like a you don't know, like, is it good, is it bad, is it good, is it bad, is it good? Just like a show when it comes out and just like a thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

It's so subjective. Yeah. And it's hard, you know. I always joke, like, you know, I'm I don't know if writers in general are thin-skinned people, but I know I'm thin-skinned. Yes. So it was, you know, you have to let people think what they want and interpret what you write however they want. Of course. And sometimes it's awesome. You're like, oh my God, I didn't even really think about that. Or sometimes, you know, when people write a bad review, which fortunately for me does not happen that often. It's I've been extremely lucky. Plus, people are kind and generous typically, yeah, in the book world, I think. That's been my experience at any rate. But when people write something negative, I try to make it constructive. But it's as you said, you know, everyone's gonna catch the ball in a different way.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

Yeah,

Connecting With Readers & Debbie's Writing Setup

SPEAKER_04 27:48

and you're able to connect with your fans and and talk to people. And now you've built eight books. It's like do you have those people that have written every single one and have talked to you? And you have seems like you'll text people or email people.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Yeah, I mean, I love hearing from readers. I it's it's a funny world because again, that's something new. You know, I imagine that, you know, Dan Brown. Well, maybe he does now because he's still writing, but you know, when he wrote the Da Vinci Code, you imagine people like messaging him on Facebook and being like, Yeah, that was awesome. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 28:16

That would have been so cool to be able to now it's just so awesome to connect, be able to connect, or even just comment or do anything, you know, with somebody like online. Like you it feels like when Twitter came out, it was like, wow, that was the first time that you could like try to message or comment to a celebrity, like, oh, I love that song or I love that. And now it's like crazy. That's it's crazy. Yeah. It's a it's a lot to keep up with. So when you're writing, I want to like, I want to describe to the listeners like what is your studio? I guess studio is probably not the right word, but like what does your like writer's room look like when you're architecting a book? Like, do you have sticky notes? Are you pulling out like what does that actually look like? Because I'm very interested in that.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Um

Daily Writing Routine & The 3-Hour Sweet Spot

SPEAKER_01 28:53

I do have uh uh like white legal pads that I write stuff on and then lose. Yes. So I'll find them like you know after the book's out and I'll be like, oh right, I wanted to, you know.

SPEAKER_04 29:05

Yeah, you're like, oh, I completely forgot.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

There was supposed to be a dog in that scene I forgot about.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Um there's post-it notes, it's you know, organized chaos. Uh, I try to be very disciplined about my writing. If you have any aspiring writers who are listeners, that's probably the best advice I could give with architect of deception. I made myself sit down at my desk every morning and write from nine to noon. Um, and if I hadn't, if I if it wasn't in me to write something, I would edit what I'd already written. But I was and still am committed to sitting at my desk and looking at the pro work in progress. Like right now, this book. So the main character in architect of deception is this guy, Raz, and he has two best friends, Archie and Hatcher. Somebody already yelled at me about the fact that those names are similar. It didn't even occur to me at the time. And they're like, I'm always so confused in the story because I can't, these three guys. And I'm like, well, the two of them are barely in it. But anyway, I'm always like, you know, so defensive.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

Yes, of course.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Anyway, the second book I'm I'm gonna write, it's gonna be a trilogy. And the second book is about Archie. And so that's what I'm doing right now. And so I'm, you know, except for coming to see Lucas and the STL bucket list, I am on my computer in the morning and plotting and working it all out and writing.

Short Chapters, Book Structure & Comedy Parallels

SPEAKER_04 30:33

So the three-hour window, is that the sweet spot that you found for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

That's my sweet spot.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Where you're not getting completely burnt, you know, where you're working, you know, sitting there. Seinfeld said that too, where he was like, you have he like I think every day for the last 40 years, he's written some joke or done something. Because like people think that like you can't, I mean, it's it's your job and you have to treat it as a job. It's like we all go, everybody else goes to work at nine and you know, does their job. So it's like I have to treat it the same way.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Well, and it's funny because Seinfeld, I mean, you and I, I'm sure I know I when I go to see a comic um or watch one of those HBO specials, and I'm like, God, that's so funny. You don't think how much those guys really plot uh, you know, a story like a joke, like a symphony, you know, with a lead-in, a timing, a crescendo, everything. Yeah. And I think, you know, for right for me, writing books is a similar experience. Writing The Architect of Deception, it's written in acts, like the enigma, the puzzle, the conundrum, and each section kind of builds like that too.

Physical Books Making a Comeback

SPEAKER_04 31:35

Similar to like what a comic would do during a show is like everything, like when I was watching Nikki, Nikki Glazer's been on the show, but like her last one where it's like it all it's like, wait, that tied back to exactly what she said at the beginning, and then it's all closed, and then that's when the mic drops.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Masterful, right? Yeah, and it's like it's almost plotted.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

It's so difficult. I feel like comics are so talented, and like obviously writers too. So I've been noticing, at least more in my world, and you know, I know my wife's an English teacher, so we were around books a lot more, but it seems like this world of analog and this world of like physical book is actually starting to come back, it's breaking through because like mid-2000s, early like Kindles came out. Obviously, TV shows are all over the place. Everybody's watching TV, but like more people are putting away their screens and then they're trying to find books. Are you seeing that in your world?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

It's like vinyl, yeah, vinyl team.

SPEAKER_04 32:21

I know.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Um, I in fact, this is the first book I've written that the paperback, it's available in hardcover paperback and ebook.

SPEAKER_03 32:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

And this is the first of the eight novels that the paperback's out selling the ebook, which is really unusual for me. I mean, normally it's way different.

SPEAKER_04 32:39

Because if your first books came out during the pandemic and stuff, and people are just buy it on Kindle, buy on Kindle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

And I think, you know, I read on a Kindle for sure. I mean, it's I I but there's something about the feel of a book in your hand that is fantastic.

SPEAKER_04 32:52

What's your at-home library look like?

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Um, it is not as well organized as I would like to say.

SPEAKER_04 33:00

Can we put a picture up on this?

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I know. I'll send you a picture. It's ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 33:05

Um I just like, is it crazy? Like, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

And it's I know where everything is, but there's some books that are sideways. And you know, I have this like my my daughter, who is extremely organized and very neat, and I have no idea where she gets it, um, always takes on a little project when she's home visiting. And, you know, the kitchen cabinets or and she keeps looking at my bookshelves, and I'm like, don't touch them. I know where everything is. I, this is, you know, my thriller section, but they're not, you know, it doesn't look like I would, you know, you see um on social media that people go, look at my library. And you know, they've built the shelves for my Kia and everything's perfect. And it's or it's rainbow, like everything's by color. Yeah, no, this is looks like sort of um that Twilight Zone episode where the guy's glasses break at the end and he's trapped in the library surrounded by all these books.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

So are you pulling inspiration? Are you like, oh, let me like grab that book for like a certain are you no take, or is it really just stuff that you've read and loved over the years?

Reading to Learn: Dan Brown & Agatha Christie

SPEAKER_01 34:03

It's both for sure. But I mean, to not grab inspiration when you've got, you know, Agatha Christie novels and um Petey James novels and you know, just Elizabeth George novels and Dan Brown novels at your fingertips. And, you know, I'll say to myself, when I read the Da Vinci Code, that was the first book that I can honestly say I could not put down. And so now I read it uh rather than for the plot, which is fantastic, yeah, but for the technique. What is he doing that makes me have to turn the page? And I try and learn from him, you know. So, and the same with Agatha Christie. Like, what is she doing that makes me not suspect the butler?

SPEAKER_03 34:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Why have why didn't I notice him the whole time?

SPEAKER_04 34:56

You know, and you reread it again. You're like, could I have picked it up here?

SPEAKER_01 34:59

And absolutely as a as a way to learn. And it's, I mean, better than any class you could take.

SPEAKER_04 35:06

So you would say that the Da Vinci code changed like your your mind, like almost like opened your mind up to a type of writing when that when did you read that? Because that came out like early 2000s, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Or did I think it was even earlier than that?

SPEAKER_04 35:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

But um it at the time it didn't change my mind for the type of writing, but I would say that that's the first book I ever read that I would describe as propulsive, not repulsive, propulsive. And um so, and people remark that that my books have that quality unintentionally. And I what I want to do is amp that up every time I can. One way, certainly, which I've always written very short chapters. I don't know why it's just not in my DNA to write a 30-page chapter. This book, The Architect of Deception, I I can't tell you how many reviewers have commented on the short chapters. It's like a huge thing. I was like, really? That's like you really enjoy a short chapter.

SPEAKER_04 36:04

I like closing a book on a chapter. It's like, oh, I just finished. It's like it's like a mile marker. It's like, oh, I just finished, completed something. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

And you know, you're getting ready to go to bed and you're at a really good part, and you think, oh, this next chapter is only three pages. I can get I can read this one. So that's like awesome. Like a, you know, that's keeps people reading too for sure.

SPEAKER_04 36:21

I noticed that when I flipped through, it's it said like chapters 50 or 70. And I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

You know, they're very short chapters.

Will She Ever Stop? What's Next: A Haunted House Thriller

SPEAKER_04 36:27

That's uh that's incredible. So you mentioned you're writing more books. Do you think you'll ever stop writing? And it you just love it that much because you're already like you the instant this one was put like sent to publisher, like you're already writing again.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

I had probably a hundred pages written of the sequel before this one even came out. I was like, I'm stoked about this trilogy, I guess. I it doesn't have a name, it's just three books that are all gonna be kind of connected by these three men and this and this world that they live in. Uh the second book, which is what I'm working on now, is the the friend who his his estranged father passes away and he lives in this big mansion in the Adirondack. So he goes up and it's gonna be a classic, like locked room, haunted house type of a deal. Really fun to write. Um, but also there's something cool about taking these kind of tried and true concepts in mystery writing and thriller writing and making them modern. Like what, you know, what does a 21st century haunted house look like versus, you know, a haunted house from 1960? Or, you know, some of these classics are based on stories that are really old. You know, the fall of the house of Usher, uh is Edgar Allan Poe. Um, The House on Haunted Hill is uh I think originally was a story from the 60s. So though, you know, they didn't even have telephones. Like what's what is it now with you know security and patent and and fingerprint locks and facial recognition and body scans. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that's sort of the it it it makes a tired story fresh again, right? Because you're giving it all this new life. It's pretty fun.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

The STL bucket list show is fueled by Upshot Coffee. My friends at Upshot Coffee have some of the best beans in town. I got some of their new packaging here. Look at this bag. How big this is. Um, they have four St. Louis locations: their flagship in Coddleville, the break shop over by Lindenwood in St. Charles, their Clayton location called Hi-Fi, um, and then Flyby over in Tower Grove, their newest location. Um, and they also sell their coffee online everywhere. If you guys haven't added Upshot Coffee to your STL bucket list, it's time to try it. Some of the my favorite people in the industry and some of the best coffee in the game. So I want to talk about St. Louis for a little bit. So, you know, it's the STL bucket list show. We like to talk about our favorites in St. Louis. So when you finish a book, how do you celebrate? Do you go to a specific restaurant? Do you do you ever go right at a specific coffee shop? Are there places that you frequent that you think would be like these are my spots in St. Louis, bucket list spots, local businesses, maybe local bookstores that you love, um, just things that you love about St. Louis?

STL Favorites: Coffee, Restaurants & Bookstores

SPEAKER_01 39:12

Definitely. Um, in the mornings, I have to say, my favorite morning place is City Coffee in Clayton. The best muffin you've ever had in your life.

SPEAKER_04 39:23

They do crepes there too, don't they?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

They do crepes there too. But I'm telling you, this muffin, I don't even want to tell people. I wish you could just edit this out. Bailey, cut.

SPEAKER_04 39:31

We'll bleep it.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Because uh they're always run out of like Yeah, we'll get there early. You gotta call ahead and to be like, save me a blueberry muffin.

SPEAKER_04 39:38

Oh, it's about to get unlocked now that it's on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

I'm telling you, oh, it's incomparable. Crispy top muffin top. I mean, I could we could spend the whole 20 minutes. I prefer blueberry, but they've got cranberry cranberry walnut and um a bunch of different flavors. Really good. Um I love almonds in Clayton. I like um truffles in Ledoux, but that's more of a like, you know, when I when it makes the bestseller list or whatever. That's the real celebration.

SPEAKER_04 40:08

That's for the big celebration. Um you can go to the market next door and like get a bottle of wine and it's like the butchery, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Um, but yeah, so those are like great places. I love um there's a Sugos and Front and Act. Yeah. Great, like low-key family pasta fun place. Yeah, they're great, Michael.

SPEAKER_04 40:26

Um, they own that they that's just a great like quick and it's quick service enough and like quick enough. It's just like low-key, like you mentioned. Like you can pop in there with your family.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

Yeah, and you're like, you know, the person comes over to the table and you're ordering, you know, whatever, a drink before dinner, and you realize it's the owner taking your order.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Yep, I love that. And then what about bookstores that in St. Louis?

SPEAKER_01 40:44

Uh the best bookstores in St. Louis. You know, I I you gotta hand it to Barnes and Noble. There's a lot of stories about it now, about how it's this big success story just financially. TikTok made them come back, apparently. And it is a great bookstore. I do love hanging out at Barnes and Noble. The novel neighbor in Webster is phenomenal. That's just to me iconic. Like great bookstore. Uh, left bank books in the Central West End. Those are my sort of go-to places. And I love supporting indie bookstores. They love supporting indie authors, which I am. And uh, so it's, you know, keeping these little brick and mortar places alive in in every capacity in St. Louis. There's so many little stores that, you know, we've I I just really try to get it's so easy to sit, you know, in the Barka Lounger and get everything you need on Amazon, but I love my little hardware store and I always go there to get, you know, this deer repellent and the stuff I need. But

Why St. Louis Gets a Bad Rap (And Shouldn't)

SPEAKER_01 41:48

St.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

Louis is a small business city, and it's like I read I read something about the we have more bookstores per capita than most cities across. I mean, I don't know if that what the standard is. St.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

St. Louis gets such a bad rap. And between the architecture, the people, the uniqueness of the city, I love it here. I don't know, I mean, uh no city is faultless. Right. And St. Louis certainly has room for improvement across many areas. But in terms of like comparable cities that, you know, to size and population, I I think St. Louis has it hands down. Such a just fantastic place and such a fantastic vibe.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

Yeah.

Where to Find Debbie Baldwin & Outro

SPEAKER_04 42:33

Absolutely. Well, Debbie Baldwin, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate the book. You guys can go to Debbie Baldwinbooks.com and you can link off to all the places where the best place for people to find you on. Are you more active on Instagram? TikTok.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Instagram's probably the best, Debbie Baldwin Books, Facebook, Debbie Baldwin Books. And then um, I'm on TikTok too. It's my handle's a little different there. It's you have to read this with underscores between the words because TikTok suspended my original account for a reason I do not know. I've literally asked them 72 times. Well, please tell me why. And they're like, appeal denied.

SPEAKER_04 43:10

Yes, I know how that is. That's happened to us before too. Well, no, I appreciate you for coming on and congratulations on all your success. And we can't wait to continue to support you now that we met and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Thank you so much. I hope you'll have me back.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

Yeah, absolutely. All right, we'll see you guys next week. St. Louis, thanks for listening. Everything we do here is about telling the story of this city, and that doesn't stop with this show. On the Bucketless Podcast Network, we're diving even deeper into the people, places, and moments that make this city what it is. Meet Me in Music with Neil Salcett captures the sound of the city, past and present, ending each episode with a live performance. For my Foodie Lovers, the sauce with Lauren Healy brings you inside the restaurants that define our culture every Tuesday. Gateway to Growth with Jamal Cornelius highlights the stories behind the people that make St. Louis work. And every Thursday, Bryce breaks down your weekend with This Week in St. Louis. More stories, more voices. Explore the full bucketless podcast network wherever you listen.